[visionlist] What can retinotopy tell us about how the brain allows us to see?

Thu Sep 28 06:27:31 -04 2023

also relevant to this discussion, and to some of Andrew's comments:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29249282/
. 2018 Jan 3;97(1):164-180.e7.
doi: 10.1016/j.neuron.2017.11.017. Epub 2017 Dec 14.
Spatial Information in a Non-retinotopic Visual Cortex
Julien Fournier
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Fournier+J&cauthor_id=29249282>  1
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29249282/#full-view-affiliation-1>, Christian
M Müller
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=M%C3%BCller+CM&cauthor_id=29249282>
1 <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29249282/#full-view-affiliation-1>, Ingmar
Schneider
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Schneider+I&cauthor_id=29249282>  1
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29249282/#full-view-affiliation-1>, Gilles
Laurent
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Laurent+G&cauthor_id=29249282>  2
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29249282/#full-view-affiliation-2>

On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 10:26 PM Andrew Parker <andrew.parker at dpag.ox.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Nice to have the challenge: here are a few remarks.
>
>
>
> 1)    Retinotopy is probably efficient but not essential for visual
> processing. The only relationships that matter in the nervous system are
> the connections between nerve cells. So, the idea that retinotopy is
> important because the cortical representation is a distorted replica of the
> retinal image is surely for the birds. We might as well worry that the
> image of the world is “upside down” on the visual cortex, an issue that
> used to present problems but now poses us no problems at all nowadays.
>
> 2)    Retinotopy arises in part because that’s how the nervous system
> builds itself, as it does for other sensory systems. Several constraints
> arise from the principle of “fire together, wire together”. But there are
> other factors related to contact molecules (ephrins) in visual development.
> These matters bite before visual input to the cortex really gets going. So,
> by the time vision truly arrives, the system is already topographic, if not
> fully retinotopic.
>
> 3)    For humans, alignment of retinotopy for left and right eyes is
> critical. It really looks as if part of amblyopia is due to the
> “scrambling” of the retinotopy of one eye in its mapping onto the cortex. A
> powerful piece of evidence here are the reports of spatial distortions in
> geometric figures when viewed by the amblyopic eye, as compared with
> viewing by the fellow eye. Stereo-depth from binocularity will of course
> fail if the mapping is not correct. Contrariwise, in animals like mice,
> with limited binocular visual fields, retinotopy marches on across the
> cortex regardless of engagement from the other eye.
>
> 4)    There’s another point about binocular retinotopic mapping, which is
> that it is really hard to see how stereo could ever develop without going
> through the alignment of two monocular retinotopic maps. It’s not
> impossible, but binocular alignment of retinotopy provides a simple
> developmental mechanism that enables stereo through a controlled, local
> mismatching of inputs from left and right eyes. This is a sort of
> counter-argument to point 1 above, but the issue with stereo is that it
> depends on the relationship of left and right eye retinotopies, not just
> the existence of retinotopic maps for each eye taken alone.
>
> 5)    There are some properties of perception that are hard to explain
> with retinotopic maps. One example is perception of symmetry, which may
> involve matching of corresponding points that are separated by many
> millimeters of cortical distance, at least in V1.
>
> 6)    For many of the spatial relationships that we need to process
> computationally from the visual inputs, near-neighbour relationships are
> dominant. Thus, the nervous system can save on economy of wiring by setting
> things up on a retinotopic basis. The saving is more than just the cost of
> building connections with “long wires”, because, in long-term use, long
> wires also cost more metabolic energy, as there are more sodium pumps to be
> maintained along each mm of wire length.
>
> 7)    For some developmental cases, the topography becomes substantially
> rearranged without complete loss of spatial visual performance. A recent
> example is https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0809688106, which
> is interesting, particularly because it involves a very early deficit at
> the cortical level.  Another example to consider is the rearrangement of
> visual projections in albino individuals. In both these cases, the details
> of the topography are different from typical human patters, but nonetheless
> basic spatial function of visuo-motor responses are preserved and
> geometrically correct.
>
>
>
>
>
> There’s a nice discussion of a number of these points in
>
> Kremkow J, Alonso JM. Thalamocortical Circuits and Functional
> Architecture. Annu Rev Vis Sci. 2018 Sep 15;4:263-285. doi:
> 10.1146/annurev-vision-091517-034122. Epub 2018 Jun 1. PMID: 29856937;
> PMCID: PMC7525828.
>
>
> Andrew
>
> On 27. Sep 2023, at 17:34, Paul Linton <paul.linton at columbia.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi Jorge,
>
> Echoing Tomas Knapen's excellent discussion (and work!), you might also be
> interested in the discussion in:
>
> Linton, P. (2021), ‘V1 as an Egocentric Cognitive Map’, *Neuroscience
> of Consciousness*, 2021(2), 17:
> https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2021/2/niab017/6369785
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Paul
>
>
> On 26 Sep 2023, at 16:15, Tomas Knapen <tknapen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Jorge,
>
> We recently wrote a review about exactly this issue, prompted by a slew of
> recent studies showing coding of visual space throughout the brain (1).
> This builds on many ideas, also from the ones you’re citing. I personally
> love Koenderink earlier work on this subject too (2).
>
> Interesting directions (again, personal opinion) are how different regions
> have specific biases in the representation of visual space, like in Uri
> Hasson’s earlier work (3). And, recent ideas by Mike Arcaro and Marge
> Livingstone about how different sensory topographies relate to one another
> (4).
>
> Hope this helps, would love to discuss more.
>
> Tomas
>
>
>
> 1.Groen, I. I. A., Dekker, T. M., Knapen, T. & Silson, E. H. Visuospatial
> coding as ubiquitous scaffolding for human cognition. *Trends Cogn Sci* (2021)
> doi:10.1016/j.tics.2021.10.011.
> 2.Koenderink, J. J. The brain a geometry engine. *Psychological Res* *52*,
> 122–127 (1990).
> 3.Hasson, U., Levy, I., Behrmann, M., Hendler, T. & Malach, R.
> Eccentricity Bias as an Organizing Principle for Human High-Order Object
> Areas. *Neuron* *34*, 479–490 (2002).
> 4.Arcaro, M. J. & Livingstone, M. S. On the relationship between maps and
> domains in inferotemporal cortex. *Nat Rev Neurosci* *22*, 573–583 (2021).
>
>
>
> On 26 Sep 2023, at 20:23, Jorge Almeida <jorgecbalmeida at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Just some context that I should have given (sorry!!!). This comes from 1)
> the beautiful discussions on the functional role of retinotopy for instance
> between people like Jon Kaas and others (e.g., "Kaas, J (1997). Topographic
> maps are fundamental to sensory processing. Brain Research Bulletin, 44(2),
> 107-112. vs. Weinberg, R. (1997). Are topographic maps fundamental to
> sensory processing?  Brain Research Bulletin, 44(2), 113-116.); and 2)
> trying to understand how, in general, topographic maps such as retinotopy
> can be important functionally (and not just neurally) and can guide our
> understanding of how the mind works (at different levels of abstraction).
> Thank you all so much!
> jorge almeida
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 11:51 PM Jorge Almeida <jorgecbalmeida at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I was wondering if some of you can point me to a set of papers (or just
>> send out some ideas) on whether and how the fact that we show that visual
>> cortex is organized in a retinotipic map (or tonotopy in auditory cortex)
>> is important in understanding how vision works/the brain allows for visual
>> processes.
>>
>> That is, is there a function for retinotopy as it comes to vision? How
>> does showing retinotopic maps tell us anything about how vision works
>> (mostly we focus on things like reducing connections and thus saving
>> energy)? How does it impact visual processing? What have we learnt about
>> visual cognition from retinotopy? Perhaps even, are there visual effects
>> that are a consequence of retinotopy?
>>
>> Sorry if the formulation of the question is not super clear and thanks in
>> advance!
>>
>> Jorge Almeida
>>
> _______________________________________________
> visionlist mailing list
> visionlist at visionscience.com
> http://visionscience.com/mailman/listinfo/visionlist_visionscience.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> visionlist mailing list
> visionlist at visionscience.com
> http://visionscience.com/mailman/listinfo/visionlist_visionscience.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> visionlist mailing list
> visionlist at visionscience.com
> http://visionscience.com/mailman/listinfo/visionlist_visionscience.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> visionlist mailing list
> visionlist at visionscience.com
> http://visionscience.com/mailman/listinfo/visionlist_visionscience.com
>

-- 
Peter Neri
Head of Vision Team
Laboratoire des Systèmes Perceptifs (UMR8248)
École Normale Supérieure
29 rue d'Ulm, 75005 Paris (France)

https://sites.google.com/site/neripeter/home
https://lsp.dec.ens.fr/en/member/652/peter-neri
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://visionscience.com/pipermail/visionlist_visionscience.com/attachments/20230928/ea70300d/attachment.html>