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At what point does grammatically "incorrect" usage become grammatical as it is adopted by more and more of the population -- 50%, 75%, 100% ? </div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Brian A. BARSKY <barsky@berkeley.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 29, 2022 2:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Todd, James <todd.44@osu.edu>; Lewis, Terri <lewistl@mcmaster.ca><br>
<b>Cc:</b> cvnet@mail.ewind.com <cvnet@mail.ewind.com>; visionlist@visionscience.com <visionlist@visionscience.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations</font>
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“None are” is just one of many examples of common American usage which is grammatically incorrect. Inserting “of them” after “none” does not change the fact that “none” is a singular. From:
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">“None are” is just one of many examples of common American usage which is grammatically incorrect.</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal">Inserting “of them” after “none” does not change the fact that “none” is a singular.</p>
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<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">cvnet <cvnet-bounces@lawton.ewind.com> on behalf of Todd, James via cvnet <cvnet@lawton.ewind.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, April 29, 2022 at 11:06 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Lewis, Terri <lewistl@mcmaster.ca><br>
<b>Cc: </b>cvnet@mail.ewind.com <cvnet@mail.ewind.com>, visionlist@visionscience.com <visionlist@visionscience.com><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black; background:white">I'm sure you are both correct in terms of formal grammar, but "none of them was removed" sounds weird to my ear, because "was" immediately follows
"them". I'd be curious to know statistically what form of the verb the average speaker of English would use in that context. The verb change associated with the subjunctive is also grammatically correct, but most English speakers do not use it, at least in
the US.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black; background:white">Jim Todd</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Lewis, Terri <lewistl@mcmaster.ca><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 29, 2022 1:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Todd, James <todd.44@osu.edu><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brian Timney <timney@uwo.ca>; Johnson, Chris A <chris-a-johnson@uiowa.edu>; vabillock <vabillock@att.net>; cvnet@mail.ewind.com <cvnet@mail.ewind.com>; visionlist@visionscience.com <visionlist@visionscience.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations</span> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:1.0pt; color:white">As much as I hate to point out your grammatical error, Todd, I shall. The sentence toward the end stating “ none of them were” should be “ none of them was” because
the subject is singular. Sent from Terri’s iPhone </span><span style="font-size:1.0pt; font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"; color:white">🌸</span><span style="font-size:1.0pt; color:white">
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As much as I hate to point out your grammatical error, Todd, I shall. The sentence toward the end stating “<span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black; background:white"> none of them were” should be “ none of them was” because the subject is singular.</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Sent from Terri’s iPhone <span style="font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">
🌸</span></p>
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On Apr 29, 2022, at 1:06 PM, Todd, James via cvnet <cvnet@lawton.ewind.com> wrote:</p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">When I first started out in the field before the internet was invented, the copy editors would hand edit manuscripts and send them back for approval. Sometimes they
would include brief lectures on the "correct" usage of various words, such as which and that, between and among, etc., usually accompanied by a xeroxed page from a style manual. I was terrorized by those lectures. They made me feel like I was in a 7<sup>th</sup> grade
English class again. At some point I submitted a paper that had several sentences in the subjunctive mood (e.g., If hypothesis A were true, we would expect cats to fall from the sky, but if hypothesis B were true, we would expect the falling animals to be
sharks. The copy editor changed each instance of were to was. I could not resist the temptation. I sent back a letter in the most pedantic tone I could muster that said: In English, when speaking about hypotheticals, we use the subjunctive mood, and I included
the relevant page from Strunk ad White. Of course, I knew that the subjunctive mood is gradually disappearing from English, but that small bit defiance gave me great pleasure. </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">I now generally defer to most copy edits, but I will dig in my heals if they add something or take something out that I think makes a passage sound awkward or difficult
to understand. I cannot think of a single instance where they did not honor my requests with respect such changes. </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">I also have a recent paper in JOV with many instances of e.g. and i.e. and none of them were removed. Perhaps they hired someone new who is on a mission to strip Latin
phrases from scientific writing. My advice Qasim is to just put them back before you accept the editorial changes. It is, after all, your paper!</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Jim Todd</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> visionlist <visionlist-bounces@visionscience.com> on behalf of Brian Timney <timney@uwo.ca><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 28, 2022 6:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Johnson, Chris A <chris-a-johnson@uiowa.edu>; vabillock <vabillock@att.net><br>
<b>Cc:</b> cvnet@mail.ewind.com <cvnet@mail.ewind.com>; visionlist@visionscience.com <visionlist@visionscience.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [visionlist] [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations</span> </p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:1.0pt; color:white">Lots of people misuse “which” , which I understand. But it is appropriate when it is referring to something incidental to the meaning of the sentence (usually when the
clause is set off by commas). The general rule is that if you can remove </span>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Lots of people misuse “which” , which I understand. But it is appropriate when it is referring to something incidental to the meaning of the sentence (usually when
the clause is set off by commas). The general rule is that if you can remove the clause without changing the meaning of the sentence, “which” is appropriate.</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Brian Timney</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience</span></p>
<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Western University</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-- </span></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">cvnet <cvnet-bounces@lawton.ewind.com> on behalf of Johnson, Chris A via cvnet <cvnet@lawton.ewind.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Vincent Billock <vabillock@att.net><br>
<b>Cc: </b>cvnet@mail.ewind.com <cvnet@mail.ewind.com>, visionlist@visionscience.com <visionlist@visionscience.com><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Many years ago the editor for the American Journal of Ophthalmology changed every which to that, made the presentation be in first person (even with multiple authors), and made
many other changes without permission.</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Chris Johnson</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Emeritus Professor, Univ. of Iowa Dept. of Ophthalmology</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Chris Johnson Sent from my iPhone
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Apr 28, 2022, at 4:48 PM, Vincent Billock via cvnet <cvnet@lawton.ewind.com> wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue"">I once had a journal edit out the word 'mayhap' after the article was accepted. I was annoyed. Mayhap is an awesome word and deserves to be printed.</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue"">I also had a journal question my use of the word 'gift' as a verb. In my reply I cited both Elizabeth Barrett Browning and Blade Runner as precedents, so they let
it in. At least they asked first.</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue"">In general I dislike the high-handed behavior of copy editors.</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue"">'et alia' is lovely. Maybe I'll try slipping that in next time.</span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue"">Vince Billock </span></p>
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<p class="x_xxmsonormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue"; color:#26282A">On Thursday, April 28, 2022, 3:30:49 PM EDT, Karen Gunther <guntherk@wabash.edu> wrote:
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<span style="color:#26282A">I just had a paper published in JOV, and I have both e.g. and i.e. multiple times in my paper (final version, not edited out).</span></p>
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<span style="color:#26282A"> </span></p>
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<span style="color:#26282A">I would LOVE to change “et al.” to “et alia”. Students never know where the period goes. And “al.” is hardly any shorter than “alia”.</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol; color:#26282A">·</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif; color:#26282A">
</span><span style="color:#26282A">Karen</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">*************************************</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Dr. Karen L. Gunther, PhD</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Professor of Psychology</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Chair, Institutional Review Board</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Chair, Psychology Division, Council on Undergraduate Research</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Baxter 322</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Wabash College</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">301 W. Wabash Ave.</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Crawfordsville, IN 47933</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">765/361-6286</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt; font-family:"Gothic sans-serif"; color:#333399">Preferred pronouns: she, her</span></p>
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<b><span style="color:#26282A">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Helvetica Neue"; color:#26282A"> cvnet <cvnet-bounces@lawton.ewind.com>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Qasim Zaidi via cvnet<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> cvnet@mail.ewind.com; visionlist@visionscience.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [cvnet] Abbreviations</span></p>
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<span style="color:#26282A">Does anyone know why "e.g." and "i.e." are being edited out of journals, especially JOV? They're well understood concise short-hand for cumbersome longer phrases, so I would like to understand the objections to using them.</span></p>
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<span style="color:#26282A">Thanks</span></p>
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<span style="color:#26282A">QZ</span></p>
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<span style="color:#26282A">Qasim Zaidi PhD<br>
SUNY Distinguished Professor <br>
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Graduate Center for Vision Research, <br>
State University of New York College of Optometry,<br>
33 West 42nd St, New York, NY 10036.<br>
Office: 212-938-5542; Lab: 212-938-5756; Fax: 212-938-5537<br>
E-mail: </span><a href="mailto:qz@sunyopt.edu" target="_blank">qz@sunyopt.edu</a><span style="color:#26282A"><br>
</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/sunyopt.edu/labs/Zaidi/index.php__;!!KGKeukY!xx3dkQE_tqyXsHO1BPlhKPtETAuhX7yK35ZR3hgCJiNQOsU9JuTMJkf659Bqi0LL49ZleoFBNnfPXD8$" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://sunyopt.edu/labs/Zaidi/index.php</span></a></p>
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