[visionlist] [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

Fri Apr 29 16:56:23 -04 2022

To all you adherents of language prescriptivism out there, you may or may not enjoy this interview of Andy Rooney by Ali G (Sasha Baron Cohen).  It appears Andy forgot that that the word "media" is plural.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KglSPl7g14Q
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.Rbf1ch44TLtVtaIdmCVwqwHgFo&pid=Api]<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KglSPl7g14Q>
Ali G and Andy Rooney<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KglSPl7g14Q>
Ali G stresses Andy Rooney
www.youtube.com

________________________________
From: KENTRIDGE, ROBERT W. <robert.kentridge at durham.ac.uk>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 3:43 PM
To: Karen Gunther <guntherk at wabash.edu>; Todd, James <todd.44 at osu.edu>; Brian A. BARSKY <barsky at berkeley.edu>; Lewis, Terri <lewistl at mcmaster.ca>
Cc: cvnet at mail.ewind.com <cvnet at mail.ewind.com>; visionlist at visionscience.com <visionlist at visionscience.com>
Subject: Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

I love “all y’all” and must try and use it in a paper one day! cheers Bob Professor of Psychology, University of Durham. Deputy Director of the Durham Centre for Visual Arts and Culture. ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍

I love “all y’all” and must try and use it in a paper one day!

cheers

Bob

[Image result for university of durham logo]   [Image result for durham cvac]

Professor of Psychology, University of Durham.

Deputy Director of the Durham Centre for Visual Arts and Culture.

[9k=]

Fellow.

Canadian Institute for Advanced Research,

Azrieli Programme in Brain, Mind & Consciousness.

Department of Psychology,

University of Durham,

Durham DH1 3LE, UK.

p: +44 191 334 3261

f: +44 191 334 3434

From: cvnet <cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com> on behalf of Karen Gunther <guntherk at wabash.edu>
Date: Friday, 29 April 2022 at 20:35
To: Todd, James <todd.44 at osu.edu>, Brian A. BARSKY <barsky at berkeley.edu>, Lewis, Terri <lewistl at mcmaster.ca>
Cc: cvnet at mail.ewind.com <cvnet at mail.ewind.com>, visionlist at visionscience.com <visionlist at visionscience.com>
Subject: Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

“You” used to only refer to multiple people, but now we use it all the time in the singular.  And yet we say to one person “you are doing this”, not “you is doing this”.  “They” is following down that path, for people who do not wish to be put into a gender binary.  “They are” is becoming more accepted to refer to just a single person.  I don’t know how many need to accept it for it to become “correct”.  (And not even getting into y’all, or all y’all.)

  *   Karen

*************************************

Dr. Karen L. Gunther, PhD

Professor of Psychology

Chair, Institutional Review Board

Chair, Psychology Division, Council on Undergraduate Research

Baxter 322

Psychology Department

Wabash College

301 W. Wabash Ave.

Crawfordsville, IN  47933

765/361-6286

Preferred pronouns:  she, her

From: cvnet <cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com> On Behalf Of Todd, James via cvnet
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 2:35 PM
To: Brian A. BARSKY <barsky at berkeley.edu>; Lewis, Terri <lewistl at mcmaster.ca>
Cc: cvnet at mail.ewind.com; visionlist at visionscience.com
Subject: Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

At what point does grammatically "incorrect" usage become grammatical as it is adopted by more and more of the population -- 50%, 75%, 100% ?

________________________________

From: Brian A. BARSKY <barsky at berkeley.edu<mailto:barsky at berkeley.edu>>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 2:17 PM
To: Todd, James <todd.44 at osu.edu<mailto:todd.44 at osu.edu>>; Lewis, Terri <lewistl at mcmaster.ca<mailto:lewistl at mcmaster.ca>>
Cc: cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com> <cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com>>; visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com> <visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com>>
Subject: Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

“None are” is just one of many examples of common American usage which is grammatically incorrect. Inserting “of them” after “none” does not change the fact that “none” is a singular. From: ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍

“None are” is just one of many examples of common American usage which is grammatically incorrect.

Inserting “of them” after “none” does not change the fact that “none” is a singular.

From: cvnet <cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com>> on behalf of Todd, James via cvnet <cvnet at lawton.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at lawton.ewind.com>>
Date: Friday, April 29, 2022 at 11:06 AM
To: Lewis, Terri <lewistl at mcmaster.ca<mailto:lewistl at mcmaster.ca>>
Cc: cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com> <cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com>>, visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com> <visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com>>
Subject: Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

I'm sure you are both correct in terms of formal grammar, but "none of them was removed" sounds weird to my ear, because "was" immediately follows "them". I'd be curious to know statistically what form of the verb the average speaker of English would use in that context. The verb change associated with the subjunctive is also grammatically correct, but most English speakers do not use it, at least in the US.

Jim Todd

________________________________

From: Lewis, Terri <lewistl at mcmaster.ca<mailto:lewistl at mcmaster.ca>>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 1:20 PM
To: Todd, James <todd.44 at osu.edu<mailto:todd.44 at osu.edu>>
Cc: Brian Timney <timney at uwo.ca<mailto:timney at uwo.ca>>; Johnson, Chris A <chris-a-johnson at uiowa.edu<mailto:chris-a-johnson at uiowa.edu>>; vabillock <vabillock at att.net<mailto:vabillock at att.net>>; cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com> <cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com>>; visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com> <visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com>>
Subject: Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

As much as I hate to point out your grammatical error, Todd, I shall. The sentence toward the end stating “ none of them were” should be “ none of them was” because the subject is singular. Sent from Terri’s iPhone 🌸 ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍

As much as I hate to point out your grammatical error, Todd, I shall. The sentence toward the end stating “ none of them were” should be “ none of them was” because the subject is singular.

Sent from Terri’s iPhone 🌸

On Apr 29, 2022, at 1:06 PM, Todd, James via cvnet <cvnet at lawton.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at lawton.ewind.com>> wrote:

When I first started out in the field before the internet was invented, the copy editors would hand edit manuscripts and send them back for approval. Sometimes they would include brief lectures on the "correct" usage of various words, such as which and that, between and among, etc., usually accompanied by a xeroxed page from a style manual. I was terrorized by those lectures. They made me feel like I was in a 7th grade English class again. At some point I submitted a paper that had several sentences in the subjunctive mood (e.g., If hypothesis A were true, we would expect cats to fall from the sky, but if hypothesis B were true, we would expect the falling animals to be sharks. The copy editor changed each instance of were to was. I could not resist the temptation. I sent back a letter in the most pedantic tone I could muster that said: In English, when speaking about hypotheticals, we use the subjunctive mood, and I included the relevant page from Strunk ad White. Of course, I knew that the subjunctive mood is gradually disappearing from English, but that small bit defiance gave me great pleasure.

I now generally defer to most copy edits, but I will dig in my heals if they add something or take something out that I think makes a passage sound awkward or difficult to understand. I cannot think of a single instance where they did not honor my requests with respect such changes.

I also have a recent paper in JOV with many instances of e.g. and i.e. and none of them were removed. Perhaps they hired someone new who is on a mission to strip Latin phrases from scientific writing. My advice Qasim is to just put them back before you accept the editorial changes. It is, after all, your paper!

Jim Todd

________________________________

From: visionlist <visionlist-bounces at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist-bounces at visionscience.com>> on behalf of Brian Timney <timney at uwo.ca<mailto:timney at uwo.ca>>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 6:31 PM
To: Johnson, Chris A <chris-a-johnson at uiowa.edu<mailto:chris-a-johnson at uiowa.edu>>; vabillock <vabillock at att.net<mailto:vabillock at att.net>>
Cc: cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com> <cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com>>; visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com> <visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com>>
Subject: Re: [visionlist] [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

Lots of people misuse “which” , which I understand. But it is appropriate when it is referring to something incidental to the meaning of the sentence (usually when the clause is set off by commas). The general rule is that if you can remove

Lots of people misuse “which” , which I understand. But it is appropriate when it is referring to something incidental to the meaning of the sentence (usually when the clause is set off by commas). The general rule is that if you can remove the clause without changing the meaning of the sentence, “which” is appropriate.

Brian Timney

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience

Western University

--

From: cvnet <cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com>> on behalf of Johnson, Chris A via cvnet <cvnet at lawton.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at lawton.ewind.com>>
Date: Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM
To: Vincent Billock <vabillock at att.net<mailto:vabillock at att.net>>
Cc: cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com> <cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com>>, visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com> <visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com>>
Subject: Re: [cvnet] [External] Re: Abbreviations

Many years ago the editor for the American Journal of Ophthalmology changed every which to that, made the presentation be in first person (even with multiple authors), and made many other changes without permission.

Chris Johnson

Emeritus Professor, Univ. of Iowa Dept. of Ophthalmology

Chris Johnson Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 28, 2022, at 4:48 PM, Vincent Billock via cvnet <cvnet at lawton.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at lawton.ewind.com>> wrote:

I once had a journal edit out the word 'mayhap' after the article was accepted.  I was annoyed.  Mayhap is an awesome word and deserves to be printed.

I also had a journal question my use of the word 'gift' as a verb.  In my reply I cited both Elizabeth Barrett Browning and Blade Runner as  precedents, so they let it in.  At least they asked first.

In general I dislike the high-handed behavior of copy editors.

'et alia' is lovely.  Maybe I'll try slipping that in next time.

Vince Billock

On Thursday, April 28, 2022, 3:30:49 PM EDT, Karen Gunther <guntherk at wabash.edu<mailto:guntherk at wabash.edu>> wrote:

I just had a paper published in JOV, and I have both e.g. and i.e. multiple times in my paper (final version, not edited out).

I would LOVE to change “et al.” to “et alia”.  Students never know where the period goes.  And “al.” is hardly any shorter than “alia”.

•         Karen

*************************************

Dr. Karen L. Gunther, PhD

Professor of Psychology

Chair, Institutional Review Board

Chair, Psychology Division, Council on Undergraduate Research

Baxter 322

Psychology Department

Wabash College

301 W. Wabash Ave.

Crawfordsville, IN  47933

765/361-6286

Preferred pronouns:  she, her

From: cvnet <cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet-bounces at lawton.ewind.com>> On Behalf Of Qasim Zaidi via cvnet
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:14 PM
To: cvnet at mail.ewind.com<mailto:cvnet at mail.ewind.com>; visionlist at visionscience.com<mailto:visionlist at visionscience.com>
Subject: [cvnet] Abbreviations

Does anyone know why "e.g."  and  "i.e." are being edited out of journals, especially JOV?  They're well understood concise short-hand for cumbersome longer phrases, so I would like to understand the objections to using them.

Thanks

QZ

Qasim Zaidi PhD
SUNY Distinguished Professor

Graduate Center for Vision Research,
State University of New York College of Optometry,
33 West 42nd St, New York, NY  10036.
Office: 212-938-5542; Lab: 212-938-5756; Fax: 212-938-5537
E-mail: qz at sunyopt.edu<mailto:qz at sunyopt.edu>
https://sunyopt.edu/labs/Zaidi/index.php<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/sunyopt.edu/labs/Zaidi/index.php__;!!KGKeukY!xx3dkQE_tqyXsHO1BPlhKPtETAuhX7yK35ZR3hgCJiNQOsU9JuTMJkf659Bqi0LL49ZleoFBNnfPXD8$>

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